Mostly, I rant against what I perceive as external forces getting in the way of the normal, everyday amateur rider just trying to live their best horsey lives however they see fit.
pictured: me, living my horsey life |
The post was simply a picture of my friend jumping what felt like an enormous square oxer, and she was enormously proud of it. Bc horses are exciting, right? And my friends and I firmly believe we should enjoy every HIGH moment we get, bc we all know there's always another low lurking around the corner.
Anyway, read that post for the full story, but essentially that judge/trainer/troll basically felt like my friend's position wasn't good enough, she wasn't helping her horse out, was basically sucking. And even after my friend took down her post out of sheer mortification, the trainer continued
It.... made me really mad. Especially bc, even when you strip away my own personal connections to that specific instance, ultimately I felt like the trainer was straight up missing the point.
is getting runaway with also considered "not helping your horse"?!? |
Now full disclosure: bc this person is part of my loose horsey circle, and a number of riders from this circle have been discussing entering and/or auditing an upcoming clinic with Phillip Dutton, I am making what seems like a not-illogical assumption that the below is in reaction to that haha. Of course it's entirely possible that it's also coincidental. Hardly matters, to be honest.
Anyway, she writes:
1. Finances. The writer claims to acknowledge that finances play a role in this, but seems to limit that influence to the clinic host, rather than the clinician themselves. Fact is, tho, lessons, instruction and, yes, clinics play a critical role in business development for professional riders.
They can be a relatively steady source of income in an otherwise turbulent volatile market of fragile horses, fierce competition, and fickle sponsors. They're also a great way to continue building a brand and suite of services. A positive clinic experience often leads to repeat customers and referrals.
2. Some clinicians might actually like teaching the basics. Look no further than Janet Foy. She's built an incredible clinic format called "Through the Levels" featuring a progressive two day curriculum that's just as educational for the auditor as it is for the rider. Riders must literally apply (I believe with VIDEO) to participate, the fees are high, and auditors pay too.
And? As the title suggest, ALL levels are filled for these clinics, including Training and First. Bc even tho Janet Foy is world class in every measurable aspect, she still recognizes that upper level dressage is rooted in correct basics developed and refined through the lower levels.
pictured: charlie don't need no damn basics! at least, not according to him lol |
Just bc that particular bad habit isn't likely to cause serious issues until riders start facing turning questions or skinny fences on course doesn't mean you can't start working on it earlier in the horse and rider's education.
And that's just one example. Sure, it's true that "understudy" trainers can similarly work through these training issues. But what's wrong with getting a fresh perspective from a clinician who might be able to better explain how these issues fit into the bigger picture.
Like when my lessons with dressage clinician Stephen Birchall basically served to give me glimpses of what the future could hold for me and Isabel. (incredible Isabel lessons here and here, less insightful lessons with Shen here and Charlie here)
training issues like not wanting to touchy the water can crop up at any time! |
For example, this is the exact reason I'm not likely to ever pay to ride with DOC or Boyd Martin after auditing them, when I could ride with Dan for a fraction of the cost. And yes, I totally recognize that I may feel the same way after observing Phillip Dutton teach.
Clinics also lack context. The format is characterized by clinicians teaching unknown horse and rider pairings, with very limited background. Some riders lie or exaggerate their experiences. Some horses have bad days. It can be risky.
Clinicians can minimize that risk by sticking to simplistic exercises (like Ralph Hill) or a pre-determined routine (like DOC), and others adopt more of a "sink or swim" attitude (Boyd Martin probably falls more into this category).
This can produce very real challenges and risks for a rider lacking in confidence, or a sensitive horse. It can also be problematic for the rider looking for a challenge, or the rider who entered the appropriate level who ends up feeling overlooked when the lesson is taken hostage by the struggling or unprepared rider...
Or. Ya know. Maybe you just really really REALLY don't mesh with the clinician and end up feeling like it was a waste of time. Or worse. This is always a possibility, as I learned all too well in that one fix-a-test experience...
None of this has ANYTHING to do with the idea that it's a "personal insult" to the clinician to bring a green or low level horse to a clinic, however.
who could ever be insulted by this cute mare anyway?!? |
Raise your hand if you currently or in the near future believe you and your horse can competently get around a BN course. I would bet money that virtually anyone reading this who jumps (even if you're new to it or dabbling!) might realistically feel this way. Now, same question, except the jumps are prelim height. Probably fewer of you are raising your hand, and fewer still are in the "my horse and I can do today" category.
Even without concrete statistics, it's not controversial to say that only a fraction of riders ever make it to the upper levels of any given horse sport. I'd go so far as to bet that roughly 3 in 5 (if not more) English discipline riders top out around 1st/2nd level dressage and ~3' jumping.
maybe this horse could have gone farther. we'll never know tho |
But. Eh. Personally, I don't feel that way. I feel that the sport is strengthened by inclusion and accessibility.
Besides, top level riders, educators, and decision makers in this sport recognize the critical importance of developing the pipeline of future riders. Considering US Eventing's latest round of soul searching following our repeated poor team performances and failure to qualify on the world stage, it's hard to argue otherwise.
this local circuit of unrated hunter shows was the highlight of my summers! |
More specifically? What are the eligibility requirements to call yourself a "Rider" or a member of any particular sport? And who is enforcing that criteria? How good do you have to be before you're not considered a "waste of time" any more?
This thought process first entered my mind when Marilyn Little's repeated and ethically repugnant bloody mouth episodes exploded into the mainstream dialogue. Many immediately dismissed her as "not a real eventer anyway," which.... made me wonder what on earth that made *me* if even ML wasn't considered legit.
I'm not a USEA member, I've never ridden in a USEA recognized event. It's not clear if I ever will. I may never wear a watch while running a cross country course. I may never do a multi-day show, or travel farther than ~2hrs to a venue. Cantering around an unrecognized novice cross country course this past summer may as well have been Kentucky, as far as I'm concerned.
i just dare you to try telling this younger version of myself that i don't count as a "real" rider |
Which, realistically, means different things to different riders. In everything from taste in clothing or gear, choices about riding in weather or sub-optimal conditions, decisions on when and how often to lesson, and what degree of autonomy we maintain.
And yes: choices about whether we want to spend our hard earned dollars on a one-off lesson with some big name star in the equestrian world. A lesson that could mean a major breakthrough in training, or... ya know, not. I don't even care the motivation.
The writer above says that this should only happen for upper level riders looking for validation or to solve a specific problem. I feel differently tho. I think, if you want to, why not?
first: we conquer the pony ride! next? the world!! |
I see no value in projecting any other eligibility requirements on that, or saying that my interest in riding with a world class professional is "insulting" to that professional if I'm not already riding at a high level. And, frankly, I reject that way of thinking and am immediately skeptical of anybody espousing that belief.
If you're thinking about entering a clinic? It's worth evaluating why. It's worth being practical about expectations and goals for a single lesson with a stranger, and about whether you can actually afford it or if the funds would be better used elsewhere.
If, after that thought process, you decide that, YES, you want to do it? Then have at it! That's what clinics are for - that is literally why they exist haha. So riders like us can pay a prescribed fee for this new experience and everything that comes with it: Like riding with different people! Experiencing a different style of teaching! Getting to check out a new venue! And hopefully walking away with more tools in your chest! And maybe pictures too!!
go riding! or the terrorists win!! |
And idk about you, but the idea of taking a lesson with Phillip Dutton or any other super star celebrity rider sounds hella more exciting than spending the equivalent on a new purse or whatever. Isn't "focusing on experiences" supposed to be the big new trend replacing consumerism anyway?
What about you - what do you think? Do you agree with my laissez-faire attitude towards riding in general, and clinics in particular? Or maybe you think there's a kernel of truth in the above writer's position? Has your opinion been colored by your own clinic experiences?
First hot take - that "trainer" sounds a little batsh*t cray-cray. The sentence structure reminds me of a person I know of IRL who also posts this way on the FB, that is so far from having her sh*t together, it may as well be in another universe.
ReplyDeleteMy second thought. Why is there so much angst about competence and progression for adult amateur riders and whether their opinion/money/participation is valid under a certain skill level? My husband belongs to a golf club. He and his buddies do not go out and analyze every shot and critique every round and beat themselves up because they're not at the same level as Tiger Woods, etc. They enjoy friendly competition, the social aspect and the health benefits of walking 18 holes in the fresh air. I can guarantee you that if Golf Clubs and Golf Pros started talking down to golfers and treating them as if they were less than, they would be in for a world of hurt.
There are so few sports or athletic options open to adult amateurs. Typically, one ages out at the college level. There may be some "sport clubs" available post-college age, but for the most point, organized sports fall by the way side.
The riding world seems to be the only place where adult amateurs are held to some irrational standard of achievement that is so unlikely when the need to balance careers, families, finances, etc. come into play.
By all means, riders should have their own personal goals and recognize their own personal achievements. But if professional organizations or professional individuals cannot respect the people that participate as adults at the amateur level - shame on them.
AMEN!! and can i get a hallelujah!!! :D
Deletethe dressage curmudgeon once made a similar comparison, except with marathon runners. if you finish that marathon, or even just give it your best but don't quite make it? people truly celebrate and applaud your effort and dedication. but god help you if you get a sub-60% on that 4th level test bc hot damn you must really suck and clearly aren't worth the oxygen you sucked out of that dressage court....
Oh yeah! Good memory. Man, I loved her blog. I wish she hadn't stopped writing. I really wanted to find out the rest of her dressage journey with Miss V.
Deletei still hold out hope that she'll pick the threads back up again at some point!
DeleteI'm confused as to why that person is trying to police other people's clinic entries. If a clinician doesn't want to teach horses or riders below a certain level, they are certainly free to set that requirement for themselves (and I've seen it before). If they leave their clinic open for all level horses and riders, then why is this person bitching about it? I don't get it. I'm not a fan of clinics myself, but if the clinicians want to open it to any level horse/rider, and those people want to ride with said clinician, then that's the beginning middle and end of the story IMO. Crazy social media trainer has some issues.
ReplyDeletelol yup - that pretty accurately sums it up. actually, more often than not, i've seen promotional materials for clinics explicitly inviting lower level riders who might otherwise worry that the trainer would be too high-level.
Deleteit's funny bc this person's last rant was all about how riders need to "demand better" from their trainers, and shouldn't "settle for sub-par instruction."
apparently there's some sort of middle ground in there between insulting the world class pros or wasting time with sub par mediocrity. maybe we should just hire this one specific trainer and be done with it!
I think there is just as much validation to taking a green horse to a bnt clinician that is well known to start their own horses as taking the training+ horse to the grandpoobah of CCIville. I mean if you are questioning some things for your young horse's foundation, it is wonderful to get clarification from someone who has been there and done that. Especially if you don't get to go to a reg trainer every week/month. Waiting to take your oncegreenhorsenowgoingtraining horse only to find out you got some big ol holes and need to go back down to bn?? Seems more ripe for disaster.
ReplyDeletedefinitely agreed. there are countless reasons why a rider can justify wanting to participate in a clinic experience, and very few of them could be considered truly "wrong" imo
DeleteEveryone's money is green. If I want to pay $500 to take a fucking donkey to a clinic, it's still $500. And you better fucking teach me with a smile on your face. :)
ReplyDeletehell yes, and with a cherry on top, thankyouverymuch!!!!
Deletebest comment.
DeleteHAHAHA. This comment. Gold. Pure gold.
DeleteIs this person actually a trainer? Or just a ranter on the interwebz?
ReplyDeleteI do not understand people that actually share these thoughts with the rest of the world. Do they really not see how ridiculous they look? I don't get it.
And now I've lost my train of thought....oops. Haha.
This is why the outside world looks in at riders and gets a feeling of unwelcomeness.
lol i mean, realistically Yes, she's an actual trainer, in that people pay her real money to teach them, and real money to judge at local schooling shows. it's a wide world out there lol....
Deletebut also yea. that feeling of unwelcomeness really bugs me, from basically any quarter.
I agree that if a clinician does not want to teach people below a particular level, then they are totally capable of making that decision beforehand and limiting entries. I actually think a lot of clinicians appreciate getting to teach some lower level riders, because many are open to a lot of the suggestions they make instead of being set in their ways and you can often see a lot of progress in a short session.
ReplyDeleteIMO, the only way you can be offensive to a clinician is if you show up looking like a slob or if you completely refuse to follow their instructions. Otherwise, take your baby green butt out there and learn!
yup i definitely think so too - esp about less experienced riders maybe being teachable and influenced in their habits.
Deletetho actually i'm not even sure showing up looking like a slob is offensive to many clinicians. the rider in ratty clothes who ate ramen for a month to afford the fee, and is attentive and follows direction might be preferable to the rider with the perfect #rootd and all the trendy expensive tack lol. also let's be real, a lot of these guys aren't exactly style mavens themselves, who knows what they'd be wearing if they weren't otherwise decked out in sponsor or team gear haha!
bc yea, like you say: showing up ready to learn is basically what a good clinician wants to see, right?
Oh I didn't mean that you have to have fancy or expensive matchy tack to impress, but I do believe that your horse and tack should be clean and tidy, and you should attempt to wear a semi-professional outfit, even if it is just a polo. Definitely agree that fancy tack is not important, but it doesn't cost any extra money to turn yourself and your horse out neatly.
Deletedefinitely! and personally, i try to be thoughtful in my preparations for presenting myself and my horse, bc it's part of what helps me get into the mindset for the clinic experience lol.
Deletetho.... yea my last lesson with dan (which happen about once a year, so they're baaaaasically like clinic rides), my horse basically cannon-balled through a mud puddle on the way in from a field and i was soaked. bc why not, right?? lol....
Hold on, I'm still picking my jaw up off the floor.
ReplyDeleteI've gone to clinics that I've enjoyed, gone back home and talked to my trainer at the time about it and been told "Oh good, so it's everything I've already been telling you" and then been left feeling like I wasted my money by paying more, and sometimes that has ruined the experience. Trainers like that are very insecure about themselves.
Of course I don't understand how that person still has clients. Though I assume they discourage riding with anyone who has more experience or competes at a higher level because, "Oh that person doesn't actually know what they're doing."
you hit the nail on the head by saying those types of comments are classic hallmarks of insecurity lol. and about her clients, and the fact that they exist?? yea, insecurity is also the key there too. her whole schtick is preying on folks who will be too busy worrying about whether they maybe aren't actually good enough after all to stop and wonder what in the fresh fuck this trainer is even trying to say...
DeleteAs someone on both sides of the table (Clinic Organizer and Clinic Rider), I don't know if I've ever hired a clinician without asking if they're comfortable teaching all levels. Granted, we live in a fairly secluded area where - as you say - the majority of our riders are lower level and they're sort of the 'bread and butter' of the financial aspect of running clinics, but I would assume if PD only wanted to teach certain levels, that would be public knowledge.. not to mention, any decent instructor can cater an exercise to nearly any level of horse/rider and have it be a challenge!
ReplyDeleteSounds like this 'trainer' has a bit of a God Complex .. yikes!
ha for sure, it's definitely a really bizarre attitude!
Deleteomg that's absolutely ridiculous. lots of comments above that I totally agree with already but my ranty 2 cents is like
ReplyDeleteyes. Maybe taking my horse who jumps the tiniest bit to a clinic with Ingrid Klimke has been over kill, and a local non BNT could help me bring them along fine. But they are NOT going to be as good as Ingrid Klimke. She's going to know things about how to deal with my spooky athletic sensitive blerp-tard that a normal layman is not going to know.
Everyone can glean something from clinics. And until I start hearing reviews about how some asshole BNT will only take people going training, I will continue to schlep to clinics with my green inexperienced derps. HUMPH.
ingrid klimke is an example in this post bc she is the only person I'd be willing to embarrass myself in front of in my current riding state. also sorry for typos. I am flustered!!
Deleteomg Ingrid tho, would 1,000% enter (or at least audit!!) that clinic lol.
Deleteand yea. you're totally right. they're the best for a reason, right? not every pro rider is destined to be an equally excellent trainer of ppl vs of horses, but damn if they don't know a whole lot more about the world of performance horse development than the rest of us!!
I am scratching my head on this one... most professionals make a living on the wallets of low level amateurs. Sorry if someone doesn't like that, but it is the truth... Especially in eventing, I have found upper level pros totally willing to help out even BN riders and ahve a lot of value to add there.
ReplyDeleteAlso, not for nothing, but A LOT of eventers have the ability to compete higher and the right horses to do it.. and choose to stay at Training and below because of the risks of the upper levels. So I am not sure there is a straight line anyone can draw between ability and the levels.
OOF what a sparkly snowflake that person is.
lol sparkly snowflake indeed! it just boggles the mind.... what kills me tho is people will BELIEVE that nonsense and subsequently second guess themselves! there ain't nothing in the world "insulting" about riding at a low level, no matter the reason!
DeleteWow she sounds like the most unpleasant, sour piece of work.
ReplyDeleteLet people be happy. They aren't her client and they do not want nor need her opinion. Bleh. Tedious.
Clinics are very hit and miss (this year I had one amazing one and one terrible one only a week apart).
I often think of clinics as chances to train at different courses for XC that aren't usually open to ride on. For Dressage and SJ I am less inclined to clinic because I can do that in my own time rather happily.
Definitely agree about clinics being hit or miss - and I remember reading about your experiences ! I’ve had both good and bad and am hopeful for more good. We will see how it goes. I actually haven’t done ANY jumping clinics before so it’ll be a new experience lol
DeleteThis kind of crap makes my skin crawl. A few months back I posted pictures of Gav and I at championships on FB. A trainer who briefly worked with Gav and I didn't 'like' a single picture, but she find time to write "scores?" in the comments. I responded with my scores, a little embarrassed, but thinking I'd hear back. She never responded. I'm pretty sure she was just trying to call me out for celebrating a mediocre championship ride (she's made other similar stabs on fb). It ate at me for days - she didn't even pretend to celebrate with us - it was just catty bullshit.
ReplyDeleteWe've got to have each others backs! We have to be each others cheerleaders. I don't have any time or energy for these nay-saying asshats.
Ugh that’s so unnecessary with the catty commentary from the former trainer. I just don’t get it. It’s like there’s this whole tribe of people that somehow want to make someone else’s success or failure personal to themselves. Like. No. Just stahp! Either be supportive or be indifferent but don’t be crowing over someone’s failure (or what you perceive to be their failure to jump thru your own self constructed hoops lol)
DeleteFirst of all, I hate that social media gives this sort of ignorant negativity a platform. Makes me sad and kinda sorta hate humanity. There is much wrong with this trainer's post (aside from the spelling and grammar)... I just can't even.
ReplyDeleteEVERY RIDER deserves the opportunity to learn. And if a clinician is willing to teach, and a rider wants to come, then where is the insult in that? The only insult is believing that not all riders can benefit from additional training opportunities and limiting students.
Yea tbh that’s a big reason why I’m not on social media in a larger way. It just.... it seems like such a ripe environment for this sorta trash, and like it has such erosive properties ugh. And yea I agree that if the clinician is fine with it, why stop the rider?!?
DeleteWow. FB trainer is really rocking the "can't get or can't afford tickets" jealousy there, ain't she.
ReplyDeleteHaving been probably the worst rider in the clinic - which was less about my skills and more about having a psycho witch of an instructor who thought a timid teenager should be on a greenbroke 3 year old stud colt - and in retrospect being very, very embarrassed that my parents paid money for that, I still remember the clinician with some fondness for not being crazy/mean like my actual instructor. IMO, a clinician who won't teach lower-level folks is a clinician who either can't teach, doesn't actually want to teach, or isn't invested in the future of the sport.
Yea totally. And I mean. It’s not totally unreasonable for a clinician to put limits or prerequisites on their clinics. If they only want rider and horse pairs capable of doing certain levels or exercises, like. That’s fine. Personally I don’t see that happen very often but it could, right? I just don’t get why this one trainer thinks she needs to worry beyond what the clinician stipulates haha
DeleteRight! And I totally understand putting limits on a specific clinic for the benefit of the riders in it - nobody wants the group riding situation where one rider can only do cavaletti and the rest are doing 3'9", and sometimes there's limitations along the lines of "we need X equipment for this level, which means we'd have to change out to Y equipment for this level... can we just use all the same equipment?" Real world, this kind of stuff happens. But policing someone else's clinic if you're not, y'know, someone that teaches how to run clinics and were asked to? Yeah, no, that's crazy-pants.
DeleteSimilar to what had already been said, but why the hell does that trainer care? Do they think people participating in clinics takes business away from them? Clearly it’s their piss poor attitude that is doing that.
ReplyDeleteI’m so on the fence about clinics. I’ve had good and bad experiences. I agree with you that if you do one, you need to show up and be prepared.
I also agree that clinicians can put constraints, or not and it’s really up to them what they teach. Not some ranting trainer...
So actually I think she *might* be worried about her business lol. Bc if some of her students take these lessons and get reamed out for stuff she’s taught them, or learn new useful things in opposition of what she has taught them, or basically just hear anything at all counter to her teachings that proves that maybe she doesn’t actually know what she’s doing or isn’t actually a good trainer.... then yea. Maybe she does end up losing business haha
DeleteWhat a comment to make! Coaches are just that.. coaches. Sure, i wont take my green bean horse to some clinics, it's a waste of MY money, but other people are welcome to. Not everyone has access to the people I have access to. A lot of people enjoy imparting their knowledge with those of us who don't aspire to FEI levels, but who just want to do their very best at the level they are at. I think that equestrian sports are already elitist without such attitudes!
ReplyDeleteYea I mean the point about taking a green horse to a clinic is real, right? Like I learned that the hard way with Charlie’s first clinic. He was simply too green for me to get what I had hoped out of it, and I realized that certain aspects of training can be handled many different ways, sure, but that for a young or green horse it’s maybe better to avoid switching it up so you don’t confuse them. So like. Yea. Green horses and clinics aren’t always a good match. But not bc the clinician is insulted by it or doesn’t think they can or want to help!
DeleteElitism drives me nuts and was partially the reason I left endurance. Pyramids can't stand on their top - you need a large base of support at the lower level of all sports. Even if she does think that it is a waste of time to take a green horse to a clinic hosted by an Olympian, that doesn't mean the Olympian thinks it is or takes it as an insult. In fact, I bet a lot of top clinicians feel worse with empty schedules than ones brimming past capacity and not just for the finances behind it. Ugh. This woman needs to shut up.
ReplyDeleteYea seriously like - the schedule needs to be filled haha. And something tells me Phillip Dutton doesn’t exactly have trouble getting high level students. Tho I bet more likely, those high level students (like my 4* coach Dan) set up private lessons with Phillip at their own discretion as schedules allow. They’re not schlepping to the random clinic. The random clinic is instead for us members of the unwashed masses to get our fifteen minutes in the presence of greatness lol!
DeleteWhat a snob. I've seen clinics advertised for Prelim or higher and such, but mostly clinicians make space for all levels because that's how clinics will fill up. My own trainer is an UL eventer who does some clinics throughout the year and has clients (like me) who are not UL riders, but says he enjoys teaching whatever level as long as the person is serious about learning. He's even offered to teach my 5 year old (who would be jumping Prelim jumps if he was allowed). I doubt he's the only UL rider like that. Not sure what this woman was thinking when she posted it.
ReplyDeleteLearning and improving through as many opportunities as possible is what it's about. Not saying I haven't been someone who [quietly under my breath and in the back of my head] poo-poos people who simply Do Not Get It at times, because I certainly have in several sports - including horses [especially when they're being unjustly mean to the animal UGH], but more often than not I recognize that people are out there giving it their all and trying and learning and that's all that matters. Improving and learning and becoming better versions of ourselves within our chosen sport/discipline.
ReplyDeleteShauna said it best - why is there some irrational bar that AA's in the equestrian world have to meet? It's absolutely ridiculous and really doesn't persist in many other sports/hobbies.
From my personal experience, Big Name Riders enjoy, and certainly do not turn away from teaching ammies and low level riders. I have always felt welcomed and encouraged. This sounds like she is either jealous or annoyed at the thought of someone below her perceived skill level riding in a clinic with her.
ReplyDeleteShe clearly has some issues.
Wanted to really go off in this comment, but not worth the time. The trainer honestly sounds bitter. If the opportunity comes up to ride with a well known, incredibly successful rider whose methods you like, why would you not take that opportunity?
ReplyDeleteEven a lot of BN H/J trainers really enjoy teaching the basics. George Morris regardless of how you or anyone else feels about him, does enjoy going out there and teaching the 2'3" rider as much as the 4' rider - he knows that he might be exposing those riders to a different way of thinking, different exercises, and showing them what good instruction is (because lets face it not a lot of Trainers are very good...) Taking green horses to clinic is really important for their development too. Though it was super tough for me, taking Ramone to GM's clinic was really good for him because he was exposed to a bank (a giant one at that) and a tricky liverpool as well as a nasty half round.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah I think that "trainer" is nuts.
Every clinic I've attended I have thought about carefully. And then paid my money and expected to be taught. I've been happy most of the time. Once was terrible, a couple we 'meh'. But it's my money and my business.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, people need to start minding their own business.
I don't really get what this person's problem is. Without the ammy/ lower level riders, a lot of these clinics would cease to exist. Shame on this person for trying to make people feel bad for getting EDUCATED.
ReplyDelete