tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post1226722517523478258..comments2024-03-29T06:50:02.941-07:00Comments on 'Fraidy Cat Eventing: Economic Case Study: TB v WB v OTTBemmahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-60517055150097821262017-08-27T12:03:57.664-07:002017-08-27T12:03:57.664-07:00In regards to the last comment, my old neighbor wa...In regards to the last comment, my old neighbor was totally in the "a horse is a horse is a horse" but he was an old moronic wanna be cowboy. He once told me "yeah no horse is worth more than $2500...well maybe Secretariat..yeah I'd probably pay 5 thousand for him" and thats when I never talked to him again lolMicaylahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09799043647759779897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-86830955784888834552017-06-12T15:11:20.406-07:002017-06-12T15:11:20.406-07:00This is a fascinating blog post and reminds me of ...This is a fascinating blog post and reminds me of something that I think about once in a while, and then try to forget:<br /><br />Over the almost three years I've owned my OTTB (who was green at purchase). . . I could have bought a much more expensive, finished horse as he's been in full training (which is several hundred per month). I'm an okay enough rider for a green horse, but not educated enough to train a horse to do all the things (jumps, lead changes, smooth transitions, etc.). So this far into owning Knight, I could have had a horse in the 20K price range. But the problem is I would never have that kind of money all up front. My trainer has just told me she doesn't think Knight enjoys jumping, so I'm at a point I have to figure out what I'm doing, what he's doing, and how to move forward. Ug! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02838778486401326850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-4367948991142147102017-06-10T01:01:07.665-07:002017-06-10T01:01:07.665-07:00Totally agree, if you have a market you can charge...Totally agree, if you have a market you can charge what they will pay.Delhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16109029912059316119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-68677739626072000902017-06-09T19:58:49.773-07:002017-06-09T19:58:49.773-07:00In show jumping (the example sport for which I cho...In show jumping (the example sport for which I chose a stallion above) the only judge is a clock and the rails. So..... Again my point here has little to do with the relative merits of the breeds for their purposes and whether the judging is right or wrong. It's that...... Tbs cost more money to put on the ground than WBs for their purpose bred sports. And when you take an animal away from the sport for which it was purposefully bred, the value proposition changes. That's it. emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-60907833539886575462017-06-09T19:48:44.459-07:002017-06-09T19:48:44.459-07:00I think tbs can do well. It's not impossible. ...I think tbs can do well. It's not impossible. I just see more WBs winning. I'm not opposed to TBs either. Rather, I think judging needs to be more open to different ways of going and reward non WBs.Olivia @ DIY Horse Ownershiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16138490796669110523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-78962368319117888952017-06-09T18:22:37.971-07:002017-06-09T18:22:37.971-07:00concur 100% - realizing i left that out of my list...concur 100% - realizing i left that out of my list in the above, but yea. tbs can be successful in hunterlandia as well. my barn is full of 'em. and of course... this is all saying nothing about the percentage tb so many of today's wbs are. emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-29017450859594115892017-06-09T18:13:07.713-07:002017-06-09T18:13:07.713-07:00I'd like to add that TB's can do well at H...I'd like to add that TB's can do well at H/J shows. Not just Warmbloods because Judges are judging against an ideal. They aren't inspecting brands and lips at the gate. So a TB that trots a 10, canters a 10 and jumps a 10 is going to beat the WB that jumps a 5, canters a 6 and trots an 8. L.Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05052638724440787772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-52146641530286710152017-06-09T17:24:03.988-07:002017-06-09T17:24:03.988-07:00i hear what you're saying and agree (to a cert...i hear what you're saying and agree (to a certain extant, tho i would point out that there are an awful lot of TBs in eventing and at the upper levels). tho it's all a bit secondary to what i'm positing above, which is that there's WAY MORE money going into race bred TBs than sport bred WBs. the financial arguments i put forward above have little to do with an individual animal's performance or outcomes, but just the costs in getting it onto the ground, and then into its sport's market (that sport, incidentally, not being limited to eventing as i used a show jumper as my wb stallion example and have a dressage example elsewhere in the comments). and it's not really saying anything about why one breed costs more than another in different markets, except to say that each breed performs better in the market for which it was purposefully bred. and in the TB's purpose-bred market? they typically end up costing a helluva lot more than WBs on average.emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-75082384253821626082017-06-09T17:17:02.354-07:002017-06-09T17:17:02.354-07:00i think that's a fair assessment - and definit...i think that's a fair assessment - and definitely will be the first to admit that what i've presented above would never fly as 'rigorous' scientific study. yes: i agree that it is the purpose for which TBs are bred that influences the cost for getting them on to the ground (tho i was very interested in that blood horse link above to see that as a portion of gdp, racing actually is not a bigger industry than showing). the ultimate hypothesis tho: that it costs more money to get a race bred tb on the ground than it does to get a sport bred wb on the ground remains valid tho.emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-41307699846084644262017-06-09T17:13:09.021-07:002017-06-09T17:13:09.021-07:00yea definitely agreed that TBs and WBs (tho to a l...yea definitely agreed that TBs and WBs (tho to a lesser extant) aren't always necessarily bred with the ammy in mind - esp TBs, all that matter is that it runs. i'd argue tho that cobs definitely have their specific purpose in breeding (why else would their type be so closely protected?) for both riding and driving sports. it's a different purpose than show jumping or flat racing or whatever, but it's still a purpose. i'm a lot less familiar with other breeds so i really didn't mention them in this post, but the world of horses is DEFINITELY bigger than tbs or wbs. it just so happens that, at least from what i can find, the most money goes into breeding tbs for racing.emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-88336417278996130862017-06-09T17:09:27.552-07:002017-06-09T17:09:27.552-07:00yea i think you're right about the WB in some ...yea i think you're right about the WB in some ways being the easier resale prospect. not necessarily bc there isn't enough of a TB audience (bc i think there is) but bc the price market is way stickier. also isn't it maddening how much more accessible incredible horses are over seas?!?emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-22546713998413383802017-06-09T17:08:51.211-07:002017-06-09T17:08:51.211-07:00Wow! That's really fascinating! And who doesn&...Wow! That's really fascinating! And who doesn't love a rabbit hole? lolMandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14485570296592298816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-87845872615504755102017-06-09T16:18:50.063-07:002017-06-09T16:18:50.063-07:00It's a tough world out there for OTTBs, but I ...It's a tough world out there for OTTBs, but I think they money is going to stay with whatever wins shows. And as long as dressage is ruling eventing and dressage judges like the way WBs move ( and hunter judges prefer WBs, etc) the WBs will be where the $ is.<br />I personally don't like dealing with baby horses, so breeding isn't something I pay much attention to. I just look at what I can buy in my price range at whatever time I am looking. If I wanted to win shows, I'd definitely be looking at WBs. As I own a Mustang and a mule, I clearly have other priorities:)Olivia @ DIY Horse Ownershiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16138490796669110523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-88826652608214398792017-06-09T15:35:19.946-07:002017-06-09T15:35:19.946-07:00My point, which I belatedly realized I never actua...My point, which I belatedly realized I never actually got to, was that I think the numbers show it isn't necessarily the breed being bred that is dictating how expensive it is to produce, but the industry it is being produced for. Racing as an industry comes with a higher price tag for a breeding than the jumping industry and it just so happens that the breeds used for top performance in those industries are the TB and WB. Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03346020257901575574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-26103625432642781222017-06-09T15:29:03.134-07:002017-06-09T15:29:03.134-07:00Great post and I loved reading all the comments to...Great post and I loved reading all the comments too. I know the purpose of your post was to look at purpose bred horses in their intended sport and what it takes to produce one hence looking at a TB/racing and WB/jumping and that by the numbers it costs more to breed for a racing TB. <br /><br />I was always taught to compare not only apples to apples but macintosh apples from the NE to macintosh apples from the NE in research: reduce as many variables as possible. So to me the next question to ask would be is it more expensive to produce a TB for jumping than a WB for jumping? When comparing the exact some purpose for the horse being bred for, is the TB still more expensive to produce? In my completely uneducated opinion, I'd bet not. I think that this plays a lot into why an OTTB is also way less, not only because it is inherently on its second career for which it wasn't bred, but also because in that second career the breed isn't as highly sought after. The same WB that goes for big money in the dressage ring would have little value being bred for endurance. Just another train of thought this led me to. Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03346020257901575574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-53587141499321402992017-06-09T14:47:02.725-07:002017-06-09T14:47:02.725-07:00Oh yeah, agreed. There were just as many well bred...Oh yeah, agreed. There were just as many well bred QH "successes" as there were well bred "failures" and it was amazing how much the price dropped. It was really jaw-dropping. At one point I was considering grabbing these "failures" and giving them another job and perhaps not selling them for profit, but just to a good home. Unfortunately, most of those "failures" - especially if they're mares, just get put into the breeding barn. Which I don't agree with, but that's neither here nor there right now.<br />Ah, thanks for the clarification! I was getting it a little from your post, but I will be the first to admit that me and economics do not mesh. At all. Period. The end. <br />So yeah, isn't it funny that some people think of TBs as "lower" because they "failed" at racing, when in all actuality they're a little more "prestigious" than these WBs! At least, if they're still racing. But you are correct: any horse that is removed from its purpose bred field will be "cheaper" than one that is successful. It makes it easier for amateurs to pay for a diamond in the rough, but just because a horse failed at one thing doesn't mean he's useless for anything else! <br />And I'm not familiar with the TB world or many others, but I have noticed that for a reiner, if you have one that's a 2 yr old, the price keeps going up and up until they're shown. If their proven, the price keeps ascending. But what I've noticed is that the further many get past those 3 yr old futurities or even the derbies their price begins to drop depending on how well they perform. Many are then advertised as "ammy" horses because they aren't as competitive as the trainer/owner wants. It is just interesting to me how the prospect prices can be so much, but then drop a lot as well if the horse doesn't perform as expected. But yeah, a very thought provoking piece, Emma.Mandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14485570296592298816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-14855338346225697842017-06-09T14:16:29.349-07:002017-06-09T14:16:29.349-07:00I’m gonna go ahead and wade into this topic even t...I’m gonna go ahead and wade into this topic even though I clearly do not have the knowledge or data that you’re working with. I’m going to go from the angle of a welsh-cob owner ;) I feel like there are sport bred horses (TBs, Warmbloods – super athletic beasties) and then there are horses bred more specifically for amateurs (welsh cobs, haflingers, certain lines of QHs, etc.) I think horse’s that tend to be less athletic, but more amateur-friendly have stickier price points. I bought Gavin for $6000 as an unstarted 4 y/o and then put about $3000 in training on him. Regardless of his added mileage, or the fact that his current delusional owner **me** thinks he moves like a mini-WB, I doubt I could get much more than 10K for him. It’s like, what you’re paying for in a WB or TB is the potential to excel at the top of a particular sport (I’m clueless on the TB v. OTTB price differences except that the obvious money making potential is gone). However, if you were to buy Gavin, you know you’ll never be at the top of any sport (I won’t hold my breath for the Pony Olympics), but you also didn’t buy him for that, you (me) bought him for a very specific type of chicken-ammy fun. And apparently that fun is worth about 10K. Disclaimer: I’m not saying WBs or racing-bred TBs aren’t ammy friendly, just that mostly they aren’t specifically bred to be. Likewise, I’m not saying other breeds can’t be very athletic, just that maybe that wasn’t the ultimate goal for them. Erikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04862898176284766826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-63352359561105296242017-06-09T13:50:27.016-07:002017-06-09T13:50:27.016-07:00As a fan of my Welsh Cobs, I gotta say I need to s...As a fan of my Welsh Cobs, I gotta say I need to stop looking at the ads from the UK...prices there are about a tenth of what people market them for here...definitely a rarity factor here or something. I'm lucky in that mine were both very fairly priced...but even so, the amount of time and work and training, not to mention board costs, there's no way I'd ever make a profit, particularly as neither are going to set the world on fire through sheer talent. Agreed, if I was going to search out a potential prospect for resale I'd likely choose warmblood just because there is a wider audience of potential buyers.Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05438372155463437107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-49614984882441952302017-06-09T13:03:04.756-07:002017-06-09T13:03:04.756-07:00yea i mean, the selection by a 4* rider kinda lend...yea i mean, the selection by a 4* rider kinda lends credibility to the horse's potential in a way that selection by a no-name amateur like myself cannot. <br /><br />i honestly don't want to delve too deeply into age or maturity other than to say ottbs by definition are onto career #2, but carry the experiences (for better or worse) of career #1 with them in body and mind. and that, in most cases, the idea of their 'potential' is not enough bc they also were not intended for this sport - and that the proposition shifts more to 'confirmed ability.' the highest priced ottbs on the sport horse market are those who have accomplished something as a sport horse. emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-43622942768616483652017-06-09T12:55:54.745-07:002017-06-09T12:55:54.745-07:00Do you think the age/maturity difference should fi...Do you think the age/maturity difference should figure in? When those TBs are sold as the aforementioned precocious stage their price is very high (high on hope, lol). When they are sold into the sport horse field, their price is often higher to a sport horse buyer than to a claiming home, assuming someone even wants to take a chance claiming the horse. <br /><br />A warmblood at a similar age to a newly OT TB is still at the "precocious" stage. They haven't had a chance to leave the "hope" stage. So their price is still higher. <br /><br />This kind of makes sense why a TB that sets foot in a 4* rider's barn is immediately worth more money. You're paying for their assurance on the "hope factor" of the OTTB. <br /><br />Does that make any sense? (I love discussing complicated theory way too much)Austenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13004088333430762406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-10882127888343809702017-06-09T12:48:15.178-07:002017-06-09T12:48:15.178-07:00yea the degree of variability when you begin looki...yea the degree of variability when you begin looking at the individual horse based on training and experience and record and what not makes it difficult for me with my own resources and limited information/knowledge to make theories. <br /><br />that's basically why i'm just looking at: breeding cost to just get it on the ground, for the purpose of tb and wb; and then cost at the point of entering the non-racing sports, for ottb and wb. emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-79153427417176563542017-06-09T12:42:39.134-07:002017-06-09T12:42:39.134-07:00Does this apply when selling across disciplines? B...Does this apply when selling across disciplines? Because a horse's value also changes drastically when doing that. Often for the better. <br /><br />We talk about these horses coming off the track being sold for far less than their worth as precocious yearlings, however their cost sold into a sport horse home ($500-$5000 on average) is often lower or the same as what they would go for on the track as failing racehorse (figuring a $2500 claiming price). <br /><br />In the same vein, a warmblood bred for dressage but without the ability to concentrate or develop enough collection could be sold for a lot more money as a hunter prospect than as a middling lower level dressage horse.<br /><br />There are too many variables to speak on this in anything but generalities, though. And not really enough widespread hard data to back it up.Austenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13004088333430762406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-59707161559039643742017-06-09T12:39:31.602-07:002017-06-09T12:39:31.602-07:00🐰🐰emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-21880553247826278592017-06-09T12:38:21.711-07:002017-06-09T12:38:21.711-07:00I <3 rabbit holes.I <3 rabbit holes.Austenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13004088333430762406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-932439930694780998.post-91205812333298764622017-06-09T12:26:18.319-07:002017-06-09T12:26:18.319-07:00yup, you basically nailed it. at the ground level ...yup, you basically nailed it. at the ground level of each breed entering their sport, on average, the value invested in the typical TB to get it on the ground is higher than the typical WB. but turn that TB into an OTTB and... it doesn't matter any more. and - more so - the horse in some ways loses some of the 'potential value' that a WB might have bc of the nature of moving into a career for which it was never intended.emmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05686949099663199382noreply@blogger.com